Date Message Visitor Town
14/5/08

Chris Rieu

 

Within the last week, our readers will have been saddened to learn of the death of Chris Rieu who was headmaster at Simon Langton Grammar School for Boys from 1955 to 1977. He is fondly remembered by many Old Langtonians of that era. 

Martin Beale has now kindly forwarded a copy of an obituary published in a recent edition of The Langton News. This confirms a number of the details supplied to the Visitors Book by our readers..... including the famous 'Pike in the School Pond' incident.

 
Chris in 1972

 Of particular interest is this quote from current headmaster, Dr Matthew Baxter....

"Chris Rieu was an  inspiration to me and much of what we have done at the school has been an attempt to recapture the progressive and liberal spirit that the school enjoyed in the 1960s and '70s under his stewardship. He valued high academic standards of behaviour but also believed in the school as a democracy."

I think we have all experienced problems in describing the real Chris Rieu as he was such an enigmatic and charismatic character. However, I suspect that Dr. Baxter's remarks go some way to explaining why Chris was such a success at the Langton. He certainly did allow a degree of freedom.... but school democracy existed within a framework of rules, discipline, care, advice and support.

As in life, the boundaries of freedom are not always clear cut and this perhaps enhanced the enigmatic image of the man. Pupils needed judgment to determine where those boundaries applied and, occasionally, how rules should be interpreted. That, of itself, was an important lesson along the way to adulthood. Too often in modern society, I see youngsters with freedom but no framework. 

The funeral of Chris Rieu takes place today in Windsor but, in so many ways, we will continue to learn from his life and work. "Forty years on when afar and assunder", there can be no finer epitaph than that. 

 

Dave Taylor
Simply Whitstable

Note: The photo extract (above) is drawn from a school prefects group photo taken during the 1972/73 academic year and kindly forwarded to Simply Whitstable by Chris Siminson. We will reproduce the full photo in the next Chat Column.

Site Note  
11/5/08
Re: Faversham Grammar of the Past

I know it is not strictly Whitstable but Bill Dancers comment about Queen Elizabeth's school and "Passy"Cartright brought back a memory. On my first day at the new school, I asked another pupil "what is the name of the master"? and was told "Passy". I went up to him and called him Mr.Passy for which I got a stroke of the cane for my cheek. We eventually became friends and I even used to visit him after he retired.

Our Comment: Thanks, Paul. There is no problem in discussing Faversham Grammar as it forms part of Whitstable's education system.

Personally, I don't know a lot about the school but I do know that it had a superb 1st XI football pitch alongside the A2. I played there a couple of times for Simon Langton and we had to change in a gym near the railway line before traversing the level crossing and walking up to the A2.

Unfortunately, on my second visit to a match there, I was roughed up by the Faversham full back. It started in the opening minute when I went past him and had my legs kicked from under me. The Faversham GS ref didn't see anything wrong and I couldn't even have a swear because Chris Rieu and several other Langton staff were on the touchline.  

It got worse but I wasn't awarded a single free kick in the entire 90 minutes., Just before the end of the match, I swerved inside the guy and he stamped on my ankle.  As a result, I spent quite a bit of the season on the sidelines and had to make a trip to hospital. I now have long term problems with the joint.... but I suppose it was my own fault. I should have kicked the b@#@@%r first!!!!!! But who was that diabolical referee...... Mr. Magoo?  

Paul
Ryan 		Charing
Kent
11/5/08
Re: School System... and Faversham Grammar of the 1940s

In reference to Barry Freemans' comments on the 11+, I took my 11 plus in 1946 which was the first year the very new and controversial multi choice questions were included as part of the exam. I recall the length of the exam. In those days, it was somewhat more than two hours.

In my case, multi choice questions were right up my back garden path. So, not only did I pass and thus make Pimpo Miles prediction wrong but, it would seem, I did rather well as I ended up in the "A" stream, at least for the first year.

Faversham Grammar (a rather Chris Rieu type headmaster would have preferred it called by its very old origional name Queen Elizabeth Grammer - a reference to Q.E.1. in whose reign it was started according history buffs) was in fact made up of two buildings. St.Annes Road housed first and second form students while the main building, sited down town close to the police station, parish church and Shepard Neame brewery, housed the remaining more senior forms. Ooops!..... I forgot to mention the very close proximity of William Gibbs Grammar for girls. Old age must be creeping up.

In your third year, this meant travel between the two schools for woodwork, as I remember, quite a little hike as it was to the playing fields at Brogdale Road.

In the "B" stream, I took surveying and think I must have surveyed the St.Annes playing field a dozen times and, over the years, that piece of land must have been the most surveyed in Faversham if not Kent. Ask any student of those times in the "B" stream and they could have told you exactly how much earth had to be moved from there to here to achieve a perfectly flat field - all this with Dumpy Levels and Sopwith Staffs and the Yorkshire (I think) brogue of "Passy" Cartwright whose greatest admonishment usually ended with "you young scallywag".

I say three cheers for all the slightly (or more so) eccentric teachers of my school days. My memories of them are fond ones and, without them, school and the world would have been a poorer place.

Cheers 

Bill D.

Our Comment: Despite all the criticism of the Eleven Plus exam, there is no doubt that it identified some interesting and hidden qualities. My experience was much the same as yours, Bill. Mr Hime (4th year teacher at Oxford street Boys school) told my parents that I was probably destined for Canterbury Tech. However, I found myself in the A-Stream at the Langton.

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but I recall the exam being almost wholly an IQ test. It makes me wonder why we weren't tested regularly at an earlier age so that teachers had a better understanding of their pupils. I also wonder why other tests weren't performed to provide early identification of learning difficulties such as dyslexia etc.  

Bill Dancer Victoria
BC
Canada
11/5/08
Re: School System

Good morning, Dave!

Very interested to read Barry Freeman's entry on the Eleven Plus exam and the amazing result for him (love the bit about the thunderstorm).However, his posting and your response started me thinking on the Eleven Plus and the oddities of the educational system in England a few decades ago.

I was born and reared in London until I was at the age to take this exam. However, personal circumstances prevented my doing so at that time, due to the fact that my mother had recently died and I was in the process of being "shipped" to Whitstable to live with my much older brother and his wife. I therefore had missed taking the Eleven Plus and was packed off to Whitstable Endowed School for Girls (I've written earlier of that experience). However, some wheels turned behind the scenes and I was permitted to take the exam when I was TWELVE Plus - and marks were deducted from my test due to my "advanced age." Anyway, I passed and began at Canerbury Technical School for Girls (grandiose title) the following September. 

I'd point out that this took place shortly after the demise of dinosaurs - in 1947. In order to take the School Certificate,  French was one of the mandatory subjects. However, due to the wisdom of the Powers that Were, I was placed in the SECOND year at the Tech, as opposed to the first, so I missed that year of French, resulting
in my being denied the opportunity to sit for the "O" levels of the School Cert exam. Forget about the "A" levels,
obviously. I felt cheated indeed. 

Somehow or other, I managed to wade against the stream of adversity and emerged at age sixteen halfway literate. A long time later, I came to the States and was working on a newspaper in Dayton, Ohio, as Secretary to the Managing Editor. (This was a daily paper with a circulation of 100,000 at the time - late 1963). On the day of JFK's assassination, I, like everyone, was numbed. We'd not become "used to" assassinations at that point. I decided to forego my work for an hour or so and to write a personal account of my feelings, with the idea of keeping it as a memento. The Managing Editor asked to see what I was doing, read it, took it to the Editor and my piece was the only non-wire service story to be run on page one the following day. It subsequently was entered in a nation-wide journalism exam (over one thousand entries from professional journalists), and became a winner. Three cash prizes and seven Honorable Mentions. I was in the latter category. At that point,
I was promoted to Feature Writer. 

However, there was, like the Eleven Plus exam, an impediment of sorts. The Editor of the paper - a real "Southern Gentleman" who looked like Colonel Sanders, was emphatic that his staff have college educations. I therefore was "granted" the Feature Writer's position on the understanding that I sign-up for college courses in the evenings. It likely would have taken me at least four years to get "the piece of paper." However,
I very much wanted to write and wasn't about to give up the chance. So, I registered at Dayton University. The irony -- and sheer lunacy of this is that I wasn't required to study journalism -- I'd proven I could WRITE.
But, had I chosen to take, for example, a major in basket-weaving, that would have been acceptable. All that mattered was that in time, I could wave my "piece of paper" (so very dear to American hearts)...... Well, a short time later, I left Dayton (enjoyed the feature-writing enormously), and came to San Francisco as my husband-to-be had landed a job as a reporter on the San Francisco Examiner.

Only a couple of weeks ago, a friend of considerable duration was almost breathless with astonishment when I told her, (she's American), that I left school at sixteen. Her reaction was more or less one of "how come you are able to READ?" This protracted tale is part life-story indeed, but also points to the business of education - on both sides of the Pond. A sad oversight (for me) on the part of the English authorities in placing me in the second year at the Tech, and the intellectual snobbery of the Editor of the paper in Dayton by way of his insistence that I obtain a college degree -- however dubious its value. On a far lower rung of the ladder in my case, it brings to mind the endless debate on Shakespeare's ability to have written what he did, HOW he did. 

Why is it so presposterous (in the minds of some) to accept that "ordinary" individuals can be possessed of a
creative intelligence? Some things, sadly, don't change. As for the Girls'Tech at the time I was there, we were housed very comfortably, in Barton Court. Small group of students in each class and a pleasant environment.
The boys' Tech was a little way along Longport Street and we girls were assigned to space in their school for
cookery lessons. You know the sort of thing, inedible stews we were supposed to take home -- but which were flushed away down the toilet before we ever got on the bus. The Tech boys were very noisy creatures and we tended to dismiss them as "unattractive."

Our Comment: Thanks, Rosemary. It's amazing how incidents in our education stay with us throughout our lives.

As I have explained, I felt very uneasy at the Langton because, coming from a working class background, I felt I didn't belong there. That wasn't wholly the fault of the Langton or its contents, it was also a fault in me. When we were approaching the A-Level exams, we all filled in applications for university grants. These included details of our parents (and their income) and they were checked openly in the classroom with pupils lining up alongside the teacher's desk. To say the least, I was very nervous about the process.

Shortly before the 'ordeal', I was sitting in the school hall during a free period and overhead two classmates discussing their applications. One laughed and said.... 'Wouldn't it be terrible if you had to admit that your father was a dustman'. I tore up my application and threw it in the bin. My opportunity to go to university went with it. 

Fortunately, I joined the Civil Service and found that people were judged on ability. However, some years later, I was working in a quite different organisation. One day, someone suggested that staff should place their degree certificates on the wall... and added that I could display my swimming certificate!!!! To which I replied that I hadn't got one of those either.... but, as yet, it hadn't stopped me swimming. My retort came from the experience and confidence of age. Sadly, it is a 'defence' that isn't always available to youngsters and they can be very vulnerable.

Do I regret not getting a degree? Well, yes.... partly because it closed certain avenues in life.... BUT mainly because, through my own snobbery, I had temporarily disowned my parents who had battled so hard to support me at the Langton. 

I have always felt ashamed but, by my mid-twenties, I realised how wrong I had been and, since then, I have always been so proud to tell people about my parents. It's amazing how some of life's most traumatic experiences have a positive side that enables us to learn. If I had been sitting somewhere else in the school hall during that free period, life may have been so different.... but would I still be a snob!

I find people very ready to discuss their schooling.... good, bad and indifferent. However, was anyone ever asked for details of their experiences by their old school? If not, how on earth was the education system ever going to remedy problems... or even know that problems existed? Even something as simple as discussing grant applications in private could have made such a massive difference!!!!!!

Rosemary
Gilbert 		San Francisco
USA
11/5/08
Re: School System

I've just read Brian Freeman's comments on the 11-plus as a filter and I too had to chuckle. On the BBC Website this morning, there is an article on John Prescott's memoirs in which he speaks of his shame at failing the 11-plus! Now THAT'S food for thought.....!!

Diana

Our Comment: Thanks, Diana.... but it's best not to mention John Prescott and thoughts of food in the same paragraph !

Diana
Suard 		Paris
10/5/08
Re: Chris Rieu, The 11 Plus Exam etc

Dave, 

I had to chuckle over your comment: "over reliance on the 11 plus as a filter, poor timing of the exam... etc... etc".  I was off sick from school when my primary school classmates sat the 11 plus and had to sit it alone in the staff room on my return. I was left unsupervised to do the test with a huge and violent thunderstorm raging over the school, so I wasted some of the valuable test minutes hiding under the large boardroom-size desk rather than diligently working out the answers! 

When the results came back I had neither passed nor failed and had to attend a daunting interview in the splendid library of what I believe was the old grammar school in Faversham (St Anne's Rd). The panel consisted of heads from secondary schools (I remember Mr Parrott, Boys' Tech Head was there - as I went to the Tech as a result of that interview) so I'm sure that your late lamented Head was also in that library (1962?).

In those days, the Boys' Tech shared the old building in Longport (a mini-version of Buckingham Palace from the outside, actually a former hospital for the injured of the Napoleonic Wars, I was led to believe) with the Technical College and so could only accommodate pupils from the 3rd Year upwards. (I therefore had to attend St Thomas's Secondary for my 1st & 2nd Year of Secondary School). My 5-year GCE syllabus was crammed into 3 years.

So basically, had it not been due to missing the original day to sit my 11 plus and that thunderstorm, I too might have been a SLBS Old Boy. The lack of room at the Tech to take and educate pupils until they were 13, was no doubt another hindrance to my education. So.... yes, poor timing made me what I am!

Our Comment: The tripartite system was a weird business in the 1950s... and its implementation was quite unfair to many pupils.

The "11 Plus exam" took no more than a couple of hours but it had the most dramatic impact. Effectively, the whole future of a child could be decided in the space of one morning at an age when he probably had no idea what he wanted to do in life. If he went to the Langton, the emphasis would be on academic subjects and progression to university. The school simply wasn't geared to help anyone become a plumber or carpenter! Conversely, progression to the Sir William Nottidge cut off the possibility of an academic education.... although quite a few pupils did find other ways into university by other routes a little later in life.

If you read our article on the origins of the Sir William Nottidge school, you will see that Technical Schools were largely underfunded and never properly implemented. This partly explains why you had to wait two years before moving to Canterbury Tech.

This messy introduction gave opponents of the tripartite system a lot of ammunition for their protests.  A lot of what they said was valid BUT, despite poor implementation, there were some underlying principles behind 'tripartite' that were right... ie that, at some stage, education needs to be chosen to suit the needs, aspirations and nature of individual students. 

The problem was that tripartite sorted it all in the wrong way and at the wrong time. As primarily an IQ test, the 11 Plus was 'passed' or 'failed'. It was not a proper assessment of skills, abilities, needs and aspirations. No value was placed on non-academic skills and abilities. Thus, the three types of school became regarded as a hierarchy and school badges became symbols of success or failure. That was an appalling way to treat kids and value people. 

This is what I like about Simply Whitstable! Everyone involved values everyone else and we all marvel at the skills and abilities of our internet friends. The wide variety of knowledge and talents covers so many things.... such as the ability to sail a barge up the Thames, build a boat, repair a car, analyse our history etc etc. It is that variety that has enabled us to build something that it is both special and, perhaps, unique. In some ways, it 'unpicks' what the Eleven Plus 'stitched up'. If we were all brain surgeons, SW couldn't happen! 

As I said earlier.... "Equal.... but Different".

Barry
Freeman 		Shaftesbury
Dorset
10/5/08
Re: Windmills and the Harbour

Hi Dave,

Regarding Brian Smith's Windmill page, I Remember as a kid jumping on to an old millstone at the harbour on my way to the Long Beach.

I lived at Woodlawn Street. To go to Long Beach, we went through the alleys, across Fountain Street and up the steps at the back of Marmion Terrace (opposite The Backwater) into the Harbour entrance, between Mr Wills' (the harbour master's) office/house and the Steam Packet pub, across the railway tracks to dead man's corner, over more rails and past the weighbridge. A few yards more brought us to the corner of Bretts Tarmac plant and there in the grass was a large millstone.

We made our way past a brick abutment holding an embankment, along the pathway past Brockman's house (a black railway cottage) on our left and over more railway track running parallel with the old sea wall. This track, I believe, once served the coke ovens. And so to the beach.

Regards

Garth

Our Comment: Thanks, Garth. The mill stone is an interesting development. Brian may not see your message for a week or two but I am sure that he will pick up on it when he is available.

Your description if the harbour is interesting, I hope it will be okay to ask for your help when we start to investigate the harbour layout for our Harbour of Bygone Days section.

Garth
Wyver 		Blackheath
NSW
Australia
10/5/08
Re: The School System

Dave,

Are 'tripartites' found on a cave floor?

John

Our Comment: Not quite, John. Tripartites grow on the ceiling. Tripargmites are the ones on the floor. As dear old Harry Mountford (my old geography teacher) said... "mites grow up but tites come down!!!!" ;-)

John
Harman 		Sidney
BC
Canada
10/5/08
Re: Charles Poppy

My great grandfather was Charles Poppy, a customs Officer on HMS Pembroke. He married Emma Putwain. On the 1881 census, he is recorded as being on tender "Lady Flora" in Whitstaple. Has anybody any information about this boat? His eldest Daughter, Rose Poppy, owned the "bubbles machine" on the sea front. We would like to find a photo of her and the machine.

Charles Poppy came back to Whitstaple and died at 1, King Edward Street in 1913.

Our Comment: Hi, Pamela. Hopefully someone can throw some light on the vessels that you have mentioned. The Bubble Machine has been mentioned by visitors to Simply Whitstable and it is referred to in a number of books. However, I have never seen a photo.

Pamela
Poppy 		Barnstable
Devon
9/5/08
Re: Chris Rieu

Hi Dave,

One more word about Chris Rieu before the non-Langtonians get fed up with us! By the way Dave, I never joined the OLA either.

You’re right about Chris Rieu being an enigmatic figure. He was an odd mixture of a man with liberal instincts and an anti-establishment streak, and an upholder of old traditions. You never quite knew what to expect from him at any one time.

1963-4 was a time when satire became the big thing in entertainment in the country, and traditional authority and institutions began to be mocked and ridiculed as never before. Chris was a great fan of the flagship of satire of that time, the TV programme “That Was the Week That Was”, and talked about it a lot in those sixth-form discussions. He was also inspired by the growing civil rights movement in the USA. Do you remember when he suggested replacing the old school song with “We Shall Overcome”, the new anthem of that civil rights movement? Everyone thought it was crazy – “Overcome what?” was a common reaction, as this was a man who, in contrast to the liberal instincts I mentioned, spoke out sharply in a speech day against the incoming Labour government’s plans to abolish grammar schools, and also a man who administered the cane quite often in the school!

So yes, Dave, the term “fascinating enigma” would fit Chris Rieu nicely.

By the way, thanks to Diana for pointing out that Chris revised his father E V Rieu’s translation of Homer’s Odyssey. Chris himself did a translation of the Acts of the Apostles from Greek for the Penguin Classics in 1957, and it’s a book that still comes up for sale on Amazon and other book websites.

Ian

Our Comment: Thanks, Ian. I do  recall Chris Rieu talking about comprehensive education... and, once again, I was left wondering what he actually thought. On that occasion, he didn't decry the concept of 'comprehensive' schools. His fear was that the SLBS would be combined with Simon Langton girls and other schools. The end result would have been a mess of an organisation spread over several buildings, several miles apart.

As time has progressed, I have found myself thinking back to his words and agreeing with his viewpoint. The problem is that so called ' educationalists' love theories but often produce cockups because they are so incompetent at planning, resourcing and managing those theories. Worse still, it is usually ages before some learned person comes up with a thesis that demonstrates that the original ideas were a mess! By then, a whole load of kids have suffered.... but.... whoops... never mind... because we can easily create another theory to screw up the next generation.

Nowadays, I never consider new educational theories until someone tells me precisely how they will be implemented and funded! In fact, I had quite a heated discussion with a person in education a few years ago.  She maintained that the 'grammar-tech-secondary' tripartite system was wrong because it was elitist. My response was 'what a load of #@££@*&$'!!!!! 

If she was claiming that it was elitist in the widest of senses, how come it opened a path to university for the son of a railway shunter who lived in a council house containing just two books!!!! If she was claiming that it was elitist in a purely educational sense, it was about time that she realised that people have differing abilities and accepted that it might be an idea to match schooling to those abilities. Humans are quite right to treat people as 'equal'.... but even God didn't bother to make them identical. Thank the Lord for that... otherwise we would all be brain surgeons with no-one to fix the plumbing. 

There may have been all sorts of poblems with the tripartite system in terms of its implementation - such us inequality of funding, over reliance on the 11 plus as a filter, poor timing of the exam... etc... etc. However, those mistakes should not be placed at the door of the theory itself. There was a lot wrong with 'tripartite' but, if you want to get rid of it, you have to come up with something that is better... in a practical sense.

I did concede that comprehensive education had possible advantages and might be better than 'tripartite' ..... IF it could be properly implemented and funded so that schools were kept to a reasonable size and fully resourced across a massively wide range of skills, abilities and needs. However, that takes a lot of money. In the real world of funding, I suspect that comprehensives were likely to be 'massive and resourced'.... or 'small and under-resourced'. 

One of the more recent theories is 'inclusive learning'. Again, the idea has merit... in theory... but what happens in practice when children with learning difficulties are stuffed into schools where discipline is poor, control is non-existent and teachers don't have the ability or skills to cope?

Then, we have the boasts about results in exams being so much better than in the past! All this leaves me pondering a few questions! Why do shop assistant's go into meltdown when they lose their calculator. Why do so many youngsters (including uni students) struggle to write basic English? Why do many employers ignore GCSE results and set their own tests to check the English and Maths of job applicants? Why are proper universities (ie excluding recently upgraded back street colleges that accept anyone who can steam up a mirror) finding it so difficult to make sense of exam results?   

No doubt, there will be many theories to explain these phenomena... so I might as well add my own. Having helped my kids through their schooling and seen some of the exam papers, I don't believe that the exams are anywhere near the same standard as the GCEs of the 1960s for most (but, admittedly, not all) subjects.  

In recent years, the government has ploughed extra funds into education. As a result, we have seen significant building works going on at our schools.... BUT what about the outcome? Do we have better educated pupils issuing from those schools? It seems to me that, whilst the government plays Father Christmas to the education system, the education system has embarked on a spending spree that makes life easier for school marketing managers. (Yes, I know! Who on earth would have imagined that schools would ever need marketing managers? However, it is now a way of attracting the most able pupils in order to finish higher up the education league table... thus obviating the need to improve teaching. This is probably just as prevalent in comprehensive schools as any other type of establishment! Who knows.... perhaps it's called elitism!).

Of course, it hasn't all been bad news in recent years and I would like to pick out one school that has amazed me.... Barton Court Grammar School at Canterbury. Many of our older readers will recall it as the old girls tech. It became a co-ed grammar school and, eventually, began to rival any school in the area for educational standards and student care. None of this appeared to stem from massive capital investment as many of its original buildings and resources were fairly ramshackle. Primarily, it got there on the most important things of all..... bloody good teaching and bloody good management. Perhaps some of the 'mink coat and no drawers' merchants at other schools should study what happened at Barton Court.... because we are entitled to see some real results for all the investment in new buildings.

Phew! I think I may have put my foot in it... again! When the brickbats start to arrive, I am going to blame you, Ian!!!!!! ;-)

Ian 
Johnson 		Huddersfield
W. Yorks
7/5/08
Re: Brian Smith's Field Names Article - Field No. 5 'Butts Field'

An archery 'butts' is an archery practice field, with mounds of earth used for the targets. 

The name originally referred to the targets themselves, but over time came to mean the platforms that held the targets as well. In mediaeval times, it was compulsory for all yeoman in England to learn archery. Here in Shaftesbury there is still a Butts Knapp, The Butts and a Butts Mead.

Our Comment: Thanks, Barry. So much has happened in the last few weeks that the Field Name task has temporarily slipped into the background. However, your contribution has got things underway again and I will be raising the whole thing again in the next Chat Column.

Brian will collate and revise the article as we progress. For the moment I will add comments and contributions in blue text in the final column of Brian's field index table. The colour will change as Brian collates the messages.

Now, if anyone wants to view Brian's article click here. Remember, the sort of things we are looking for are...

  • any information on the origins of the field names such as that given by Barry above
  • any alternative names used by local people. For example the field 'Coppins' was known as London's Field in the 1940s/50s
  • information on modern use of the names (eg as street names, building names or other uses). For example - eg Terry Phillips house in Old Bridge Road was built on Coppins and it inherited the Coppins name. In the 1950s, the 'house' names at Sir William Nottidge school were named after four of the fields - Coppins, Sedberry, Minters and Torrith.

I will add my own contributions in blue text as soon as I get time to do some studying!

Barry
Freeman 		Shaftesbury
Dorset
7/5/08
Message for Rita Marsh (Tolputt)....

I was interested in the comments being made concerning "the rag and bone man" of Whitstable and to know that you are his daughter. You see, Les is my cousin and along with sisters, Christine and Doreen, I shared a lot of school and teen years with all 3. I often stayed with you grandfather Percy and his wife Alice. I also remember your mother Blanche when Les and she married. 

You're right, he was very well known and the dog would run in circles in front of the horse and van in carnivals etc each year. 

Are you aware of your cousin Maureen, who lives in Whitstable now? She is Christine's daughter. I now live in Hobart, Tasmania in Australia. We came out here in 1966 and we have 6 children, 10 grandchildren and 1 great grandchild (soon to be 2 more). I picked your name on the internet over your father's exploits. 

I was born in Whitstable on 23-5-31 opposite the harbour and we had a beach hut at Seasalter alongside the golf course. I'm now retired as a Salvation Army officer along with my wife and family.

I have asked for my email address tobe passed on to you in case you are interested in chatting more. 


Reg and Eve Tolputt

Our Comment: Thanks, Reg. I will pass your address on to Rita.

Reg
Tolputt 		Warrane
Tasmania
Australia

 

7/5/08
Re:  Chris Rieu and Simon Langton Boys School

Hello once again, Dave,

I've found the comments on Chris Rieu fascinating - he seems to have been quite a character and a very erudite one at that.

Both he and his father E.V. Rieu were Greek scholars. The former wanted to make the classics available to the ordinary reader, in good modern English, and his translation of Homer's Odyssey was published in 1946 by Penguin Classics. Chris Rieu later made a revised translation, to bring it up to date for modern readers. (For more details see the Preface in the Penguin Classics (2003?) edition of Homer: THE ODYSSEY, which also mentions that on retirement he worked for Cruse Bereavement Counselling and for the Samaritans.)

My father was at Simon Langton for a time back in the 1920s and I seem to remember him saying that the school was situated where the present bus station is. Can anyone else confirm this, or is my memory not too accurate?!!

Diana

Our Comment: Thanks, Diana. I knew Chris Rieu's specialisms embraced the classics but I had no idea about the book and translations. I seem to be learning more about Chris now than I managed in 7 years at SLBS! 

The old Simon Langton Boys School was located in the Whitefriars area of Canterbury. That area was heavily bombed during WWII and redeveloped in the 1950s as a bus station and multi storey department store (Ricemans). Of course, in recent times, Ricemans has itself been demolished and replaced by the new Whitefriars shopping centre. 

Ian Johnson has mentioned that Chris Rieu arrived at the school in 1954 and it is interesting to map this to the Whitstable schools articles on our Days Gone By menu (in particular the history pages of the Oxford Street Boys and Sir William Nottidge schools). If you read those pages, you will see that the Butler Education Act of 1944 abolished all fees at grammar schools, established the tripartite school system (of grammar, technical and secondary modern) and introduced the 11 Plus exam. Until then, most Whitstable boys attended the Oxford Street School until age 14 and then left to seek work. Secondary education was largely confined to fee payers or boys who obtained a scholarship. I suspect that most couldn't afford it and wouldn't have considered the scholarship option... because people tended to follow in the footsteps of their relatives.  Perhaps, some of our more senior SLBS Old Boys can tell us a bit about the school and the arrangements for its intake pre-war.

The Butler changes must have had a major impact on Simon Langton with children arriving from perhaps a wider range of backgrounds via an automatic selection process. No longer would kids automatically follow in the footsteps of their rellies!

I wonder how all this was regarded by the pre-1940s school establishment. Perhaps, that was why I felt uneasy at the school in the first few years of my grammar school education. In some ways, I felt I didn't belong there and, even now, I look back on it all with quite confused feelings. However, now that I have given it more thought, perhaps its wasn't just me who was struggling with a sense of identity and place in life. Maybe, the school was too!!!! After all, it had a history dating back to the middle ages, a governing board drawn from an earlier era of education, a headmaster with a public school background.... and an intake of 11 Plus students from everywhere. How confused can you get?

I suspect that Chris Rieu had quite a job on his hands in the mid-1950s as he carried things into a new era and oversaw the relocation of the school to Nackington Road. By the time I arrived at the new building in 1960, things were running like clockwork - a tribute to the work of Chris and his staff. 

Once again, our Visitors Book has opened up quite an area for discussion!!!!

Diana
Suard 		Paris
6/5/08
Re: Chris Rieu

Dave,

I am very sorry to hear about the death of Chris Rieu – thanks for letting me know.

My memories of Chris are mostly fond ones – he was quite inspirational in many ways, though not everyone liked all of his ideas. That made him more intriguing in many ways – he was certainly never dull.

He was a product of a public school background - Highgate School, I think I remember him telling us – and was most at ease with cerebral academic and artistic types like himself. He was less at ease with ordinary working-class people I think. My Mum thought him distinctly weird and not very likeable when she had a talk with him once. She found his attitude to her very lofty and superior, so much so that when my sister and brother subsequently passed the 11-plus, my Mum and Dad chose to send them both to Faversham!

I remember many of the incidents you recall, Dave. As we moved up the school, we became more and more aware of what a maverick he was regarded as among most of the governors and authority types. I had an uncle by marriage who was a member of the Kent Education Committee, and a school governor and a J.P. in the Medway towns, and he said that all his “cronies” thought that Chris Rieu was a "dubious" character. Chris did not endear himself to the (mainly Tory) retired colonel types, even though he had been in the army himself, had fought in the Second World War and had even won the Military Cross - I think while serving in a British army unit fighting the Italians in Eritrea.

I have particularly fond memories of those classes he took with us when we were in the sixth form, covering creative writing, social and political topics, and really just learning to think, to be aware of things, and to learn to appreciate the “is-ness” of our experiences, as he put it. He encouraged me to write, praising me at the end of one essay for my “sensitive and fluent prose”. I have always enjoyed writing, have had a number of journal articles published in my time, and also in other writing, including the bits and pieces I send you for SW, I feel inspired by his encouragement all those years ago.

His performances at those classes could also be highly entertaining. I can still remember when we used to watch with him a particular Schools TV series on current topics for sixth-formers, which often featured a Labour politician and commentator Lord Francis Williams, who often appeared on panels on TV discussion programmes in those days, what we would now call a “telly pundit”, and someone who was very fond of his own voice. Chris referred to him once as “a man who approaches every subject with an open mouth”. We collapsed with laughter, and Chris laughed a bit too much at his own joke, which was typical of him.

I can throw a bit of light on his name change to Dominic: when I visited the school in 1967, two years after I had left, I was at the time working as a voluntary worker in a residential special school for children with severe behaviour problems. When I chatted with Chris, he was very interested in the school I was working at, and asked me lots of questions about it. He said he was involved with a religious organisation which was hoping to set up a similar type of school.

That was the last time I spoke with him but, about a year later, I became friends with two people who were members of what turned out to be the same movement that Chris was involved in. It goes by the name of Subud, a worldwide mystical religious movement started by an Indonesian teacher named Bapak Muhammad Subuh. When members are acknowledged to be at a certain stage of advancement in the movement, they are given a new first name, a name decided by the movement’s leader. So Chris became Dominic. I believe he became a prominent and active member of the movement in Britain, so he no doubt continued to be inspired and to inspire others, just as he did in our days at Langton all those years ago - a man impossible to forget.


Ian

Our Comment: Thanks, Ian. All this reminds me of the first bit of information that I ever received about Chris Rieu. After I had been accepted by Simon Langton School, my mum and dad attended an introductory evening designed to outline all the requirements. They were quite daunted by the whole thing and went off 'all poshed up'. As they had never seen the inside of a grammar school, I think they probably felt like the Hill Billies arriving in Beverley.

When they returned home, they were relieved and full of chatter..... informing me that Mr Rieu looked 'tanned and well' but his teachers could all do with 'getting out in the sunshine'. (NB As dad had spent most of his life outdoors as a shunter, that was how he judged people). Another thing that confused them was that 'school boys' (sixth formers) looked like men but my form teacher (Mr Marsland) looked like a boy. It was all such a different world!!!!!

It was even more amusing when we all sat down to examine the prospectus and the massive list of requirements. There were descriptions that ordinary working people would simply never use.... ie 'straight edge' for ruler..... and 'zephyr' for gym T-shirt. The latter caused even more confusion when our copy of 'The Enquire Within Upon Everything' described it as a 'light wind'. As an exercise in communication, the list of requirements was appalling.... but I suppose it sounded 'public school'.... ish!

These things worried my parents because they wanted to make sure that I wouldn't feel out of place. I think they felt that there was still something of a barrier between the Langton of the 1960s and the working classes. I don't think that was quite the case with Faversham Grammar. Occasionally, I look back and wish I had opted for Faversham.... which probably explains why I wasn't tempted to join the Old Langtonian's Association after leaving school!

As school kids, we never really got to hear the inner debates of the establishments we attended. Thus I never really knew how much Chris fought to change 'the establishment' and how much he was actually responsible for it. I can describe Chris, analyse his personality, discuss his actions..... and, yet, never get anywhere near 'knowing' or fully 'understanding' him. To me, he will always remain a dignified, principled, caring enigma. 

Ian
Johnson 		Huddersfield
W. Yorks
6/5/08
Re: Chris Rieu

I too was sorry to hear of the passing of Chris Rieu (through your/our site!!).

Chris was the headmaster during all my time at the Langton (65-73) and although I always felt he favoured the more arts/humanities subjects (my best subjects were maths, physics and chemistry) I always found him fair to deal with - even more so during my latter years when, due to my complete inability to comprehend applied mathematics (my snooker balls always somehow ended up rolling uphill?!) I eventually ended up in the (privilged) third year sixth until I finally left aged nearly 19 having failed said subject on three occasions when it was finally decided that perhaps applied mathematics and I were not cut out for one another.

Dave - I don't know if I have sent you a copy of the prefects photograph taken in the South quad circa 1972 in the past. If I haven't, I'll try and dig it out again and send it to you as its got a good image of Chris in it.

R.I.P. Chris Rieu.

Best regards

Chris Siminson

Our Comment: Thanks, Chris. The news  of Chris Rieu was kindly forwarded to SW by Martin Beale. Unfortunately, in the hurry to get the information on the web site, I forgot to mention this. My thanks and apologies to Martin.

I do still have the copy of your Langton prefects photo. I am currently working on a Chat Column and I will reproduce it there. Many thanks.

Chris
Siminson 		Whitstable
6/5/08
Re: Chris Rieu


I was sorry to learn of Mr Rieu's passing, though at 93 he had a pretty good innings. He came to SL in about 1954 to replace Mr L H Myers ("Jerry" Myers) who had been headmaster during and after the War.

"Jerry" was a socialist and great friend of the "Red" Dean, Dr Hewlett Johnson, who was often seen prowling around the school, in his capacity as member of the board of guardians. Mr Myers certainly didn't believe in the trappings of the public school and tried to instil in us the idea of the equality of our fellow men. He not only gained the respect of the older boys, but their friendship too. In fact, a number of us visited him regularly in his retirement (perhaps he was checking up on "his" school).

Mr Rieu changed all that. Since Canterbury already had three public schools, he hoped to add a fourth and promptly made a number of changes, among the first being that sixth formers had to wear boaters. There was a lot of grumbling but Chris got his way. It was quickly discovered the hats made effective weapons when used like frisbees. Soon most hats had their crowns held on by sellotape and there were unhappy parents (they were not cheap).

However, it was not all bad as he endeavoured to turn us into gentlemen, with cocktail parties and dances at Christmas with the sixth form from the Girls' School. Chairs were used for practice, which must been a strange sight and did nothing to help us negotiate turns with real girls.

In my last year, 1956/7 I was appointed head boy, to my surprise and that of my colleagues, who actually wanted the job. But it meant working closely with the headmaster and I found him to be far more human than his public persona. I believe in those days he was actually rather shy.

Nothing too horrible happened in that year. I had to partner Mrs R. at the annual dance (terrifying) and give a speech at prize giving (more so). Chris insisted on vetting my text beforehand, and I was taken aback when I heard him using some of my best material in his opening remarks!

This was all in the old school, of course. So no doubt Chris was able to put his stamp on the school when the new building opened shortly afterwards.

Our Comment: Chris will be remembered for many things but my overriding memory is that he was guided very much by deep thought and principle.

In some respects, he was like Malcolm Muggeridge in that his speech was often punctuated by significant pauses as he gazed at the ceiling and agonised over the precise wording. Sometimes, this caused him to lose sight of the overall effect of the sentence... with some amusing results. He took the sixth form for special classes which involved regular essays and the presentation of a speech. At the start of that course of study, Chris gave examples of the subjects we might chose for our 'talks'... as follows.... "Some people might choose subjects such as social issues.... or hobbies. You could even do a subject such as homosexuality... (pause).... but I don't think we should do that until we know each other a little better".

His depth of thought meant that his reaction wasn't easily predictable by anyone who merely gave matters superficial consideration. Back in the early 1960s, (possibly 1964), the Conservative party was granted permission to film the SLBS at work as an example of a 'new' school built in their reign. Chris simply announced the arrangement in assembly without further comment. When the film crews arrived, some boys mounted protests with anti-political slogans appearing on blackboards. I believe the film makers eventually withdrew without their propaganda coup!

We all waited for the holocaust... but it never came. Chris simply announced in assembly that he respected our desire not to be included in political games. He added that it would have been different if the film makers had chosen to film the empty building during the school holidays.

We didn't get off so lightly when Prize Giving Day ended in disgrace after the boys made a hash of singing the school song. Many didn't sing it at all.... but some sang a rather different version. There were other misdemeanours that day. Mr Ebbutt's (geography teacher) gown was fringed with fur and one boy passed quite a loud comment.... "Ooh look it's Father Christmas". At one point, a paper aeroplane sailed over our heads.

Chris didn't appear in assembly for a full week. When he did, he explained that he had wanted to take time to calm down and think about the situation. He delivered quite a strong rebuke and added that, if we didn't like the school song, we had 12 months to write a new one before the next prize giving! Needless to say, no new song was created and the next Prize Giving ended with the national anthem.

I don't think Chris's assessment ended there. Within a couple of years, Prize Giving became an evening event attended only by prize winners. I do wonder whether he recognised that it was quite painful for us to watch the same boys receive the same awards every year!

Chris was always keen to share his thoughts with pupils and to provide explanations. When school uniform standards began to slip, he gave another lecture at assembly. During the course of this, he explained that uniforms were a way of treating all people the same. Without a uniform, rich kids would turn up in the latest Italian suits leaving poorer kids at a disadvantage. Mind you, despite the depth of thought, he did sometimes miss the odd important point... ie that the SLBS uniform was complex to make and it was only available from some 3 outfitters (Gores, Deakins and Hunters). It was the most expensive grammar school uniform known to mankind.... and it caused my parents an awful lot of heartache and deprivation!!! Even so, I wonder if Chris had a hand in a cheaper jacket that started to become available..... at the Co-Op!!!! (NB A Co-Op jacket was different because the lion badge (or was it a griffin?) had a different face... and my mum got a 'divi')). 

As you say, Chris did have some desire to emulate public schools. Some of this was a bit irritating to us pupils but some was quite revolutionary. For example, the SLBS was only the second school in the country to establish a language laboratory complete with sound proof cubicles and a range of tape recorders. The first was either Eton or Harrow!

Chris always enjoyed his contact with pupils and, much of the time, he could appreciate a joke from them. However, I think his sense of humour was severely tested when a young man placed a pike in the school fish pond. It was half dead as a result of being brought to school in a damp cloth but Chris was very worried and could be seen running up and down the edge of the pond with a net. At one point, a shoal of goldfish swam across a clear stretch of pond... prompting a sixth former to remark... "It's okay, sir.... the fish are forming convoys".

I suppose one of the things I will remember was the broad smile and tanned face. I remember our team winning the NE Kent football cup at Kingsmead stadium. As we collected our medals, I gazed up at the main stand where a beaming Chris Rieu was standing to applaud. Why did I spot him so quickly amongst all the other 'supporters'. Well... he just had that kind of presence.... both at school.... and anywhere else. 

I was always a bit surprised by his knowledge of the goings on around the school. In the sixth form, I got to chuck a javelin for the first time (NB It was deemed too dangerous for younger kids to have javelins!). My first chuck landed within a yard or so of the school record. Whammer Hummerstone (games teacher) was amazed as I was tiny (about 5 ft 5 ins) and wore football trainers rather than athletic spikes. To be honest, I was bored by the whole thing. After all, if athletes wanted a javelin, why did they keep chucking it away. Anyway, the next day I was making my way down the long science corridor and saw Chris striding towards me. (He was always so impressive when he marched down that corridor wearing his gown and carrying his mortar board. To me, he seemed like a mountain of a man). He stopped and talked to me about the javelin episode.  

Looking back, I don't necessarily agree with everything he 'did or said'.... BUT I am sure that whatever he  did 'do or say' was the result of thought and genuine conviction. 

Chris was quite a complex character but, as I have said, he was always driven by high principle. He will be missed.  

Phil
Neame 		Vancouver
BC
Canada
4/5/08
Good afternoon, Dave.

Re: Death of Chris Rieu

 I, like many Langtonians forty years on, was sorry to learn of the death of Chris Rieu and your short tribute to him was bang on target. He had a good long life and, hopefully,a fulfilled one. Certainly my time at the Langton was happy and, as I like to think, worthwhile.

Re: Dreamland

Another sad item was the loss of the roller coaster at Dreamland. Ir was always known as the Scenic Railway, as I recall. Not that I remember seeing much scenery from it!! Have the circumstances of the fire been made known? Again, Dave, your comments on Dreamland were most apt and I recall going on many of the rides that you mention.

Re: The Merrie England (Ramsgate) Rail Connection 

You also mention Merrie England at Ramsgate and the associated railway. You may be aware that the amusement park was built on the site of Ramsgate Harbour station which closed in 1926. At this time the Southern Railway rationalised its routes in Thanet and built a new station in Ramsgate on a section of new line. This also included Dumpton Park. 

As you mention, a sensible way to get to the front at Ramsgate was to alight at Dumpton Park and walk along to Hereson Road station and catch the Ramsgate Tunnel Railway train. For most of the way to Merrie England this ran through the tunnel that formerly carried the main line into Ramsgate. This was also abandoned in 1926. In fact, the Tunnel Railway used a new section of tunnel at the Hereson Road end, the top end of the former main line tunnel not being used. It was possible in the 60s to see the old tunnel mouth just before Dumpton Park station when travelling by train towards Ramsgate, but I believe that the area is too overgrown now. 

The Tunnel Railway was narrow gauge and, as I recall, suffered an accident in the mid 60s. I am not sure if it ever reopened afterwards but if it did it did not last long. Some of the coaches finished up being used at the narrow gauge line operated by the Hollycombe Steam Collection in Hampshire but I do not know if they are still there.

The Thanet towns were important to us growing up in the Whitstable of the 60s but certainly the latter was considered the poor relation of the Thanet towns. My experience of the North Kent Coast has been very limited in recent years but I am not sure if the same would be said now. The last time I was in Margate it seemed very run down.

Lastly, I found Mike Bune's posting of 26th April very interesting. His comments about Poland and the Czech Republic were most thought provoking. My travels in Eastern Europe are very limited but my wife, Theresa, and I know people from that part of the world. Compared to us, they and their families have a history which we cannot begin to imagine, particularly with regard to the hardships and indignities that they suffered. Europe squabbled for years over that part of the world and boundaries have been frequently realigned with countries such as Prussia disappearing completely as separate entities. 

The inhumanity that Mike refers to can only leave us speechless. Some years ago, Theresa and I went to the site of Buchenwald concentration camp and what the camp stood for must never be allowed to happen again. It also confirms how lucky we have been to have such stability in our country's history which has in more recent times enabled those of us raised in Whitstable (and elsewhere) to have an upbringing vastly more comfortable than many of those living in Eastern Europe.

With every good wish,

Terry

Our Comment: Thanks, Terry. I am sure that many fond stories of Chris Rieu will arise in the coming weeks.

The information about the Ramsgate rail link is fascinating. I had no idea how the Merrie England line came to pass! It's rather silly of me... because there was no way that such an elaborate facility would be built purely as a fairground ride. (I use the term  'fairground' ride because, in the 1950s, the line had brightly painted carriages similar to a roller coaster ride and there were illuminated Disney characters in the tunnel).

I am not an expert on Ramsgate but, as I have said before, I believe that access to the seafront was something that caused the town to play second fiddle to Margate as a resort in the 1950s. It was a very long, sloping walk from the 'new' railway station... whereas Margate station was virtually on the beach! 

The port also suffered transport difficulties - despite the creation of the Sally Line's sea link to Dunkerque. Foot passengers had to negotiate the trek from station to harbour and there was no dedicated road link to the dock for lorries. Thus, it was never able to fully compete with the likes of Dover.

I agree with your comments about Poland. Poland has suffered so much due to its location and many brave Poles have died in the quest for freedom and democracy. By contrast, our island status has helped us to establish the democratic society that we know today. However, freedom and democracy has taken many centuries to achieve in Britain - arguably since Magna Carta in 1215. Along the way, many brave Brits have died in defence of it all.

All this has had me musing over a TV programme about Iraq that was screened shortly before the US/UK invasion. A TV company set up a satellite link (between a hamburger bar in the USA and a cafe in Jordan) in order to allow young people to discuss the situation. A naive American girl pronounced that Iraq would be freed from its dictator and, once democracy had been established, the country would prosper to the envy of all other Middle East states. It was magic wand stuffand so typically American .... ie straight out of a John Wayne film set!

What a total misunderstanding of democracy! Democracy isn't just a system and it cannot simply be bestowed by an outside power. Democracy lives first and foremost in the hearts and minds of people. People have to want it, understand it, value it.... and, ultimately, be prepared to fight to acquire and protect it. Even then, it can only exist when the powerful minority with guns agree to accept the will of the majority for no other reason than that there are more of them. There is no easy path to democracy and, in any event, it is not a guarantee of immediate financial success.

In some respects, I feel that the people of Iraq have been so oppressed and downtrodden that stable democracy is still some way off . I suspect that their immediate desires are much simpler... ie to be left alone to get on with their lives in peace irrespective of what political system is deployed! (NB In a Chat Column back in March 2003 I wrote an article on this subject using a well known pyramid theory called Maslow's "hierarchy of need". If anyone is interested in that article I can dig it out and place it on the site for a while).

Terry
Phillips 		Farheam
Hants
2/5/08

Chris Rieu

Old Langtonians will be saddened to read of the death of Chris Rieu at the age of 93. Mr Rieu was headmaster at Simon Langton Boys School during the 1960s and 1970s and will be fondly remembered by many of our readers. 

He was a caring, thoughtful and innovative leader who guided the school into the modern era whilst maintaining its deep sense of history and tradition. After retirement, he assumed the name 'Dominic' but, to generations of SLBS pupils, he will always be 'Chris' - the silver haired giant wearing the gown and carrying the mortar board.. 

Mr Rieu's  funeral will take place at Windsor on Thursday, 8 May 2008.   

Site Note  
2/5/08
Re: RNLI and the Search for  missing USAF Thunderjet.

Dave Jordan has very kindly given permission for his article to be added to our Harbour of Days Gone By section. Dave has also forwarded some  fascinating documentation of the search for the Thunderjets including official reports from 'The Lifeboat' publication of March 1958. Many thanks, Dave.

Thunderjet Search.... My apology

Incidentally, I have been reviewing my response to Rosemary Gilbert's message of 29/5/08 in which she recalls that staff at Manston were not told of the loss of the aircraft and asks if it was kept secret as part of  the Cold War. My comment may have implied that I was seeking to confirm that the incident took place. That was not, of course, the case. I was actually interested in whether or not the USAF had played down the loss of the aircraft for diplomatic reasons. Unfortunately, my choice of wording may have led to some confusion. I would like to apologise for this. 
Site Note  
1/5/08
Re: Dreamland Memories

Hey Dave, you forgot to mention the Caterpillar in your list of rides at Dreamland. The ride was circular and you went round and round and up and down. Then, the caterpillar cover would come over but the ride also had two wind machines which you rode over. I can remember wearing the full skirts in the late fifties and the man controlling the ride made sure that the car my friend and I shared had stopped over the wind machine. Everyone was laughing and we had real trouble trying to keep our skirts down.

Pam x

Our Comment: Ah, yes... the ol' caterpillar, Pam! Thanks for reminding me.

Apart from the rides, there were some familiar characters at Dreamland. One was a little guy who guessed the weight of customers. I seem to recall that he wore a trilby hat.... rather like a 'tic tac' man at a race course. Nowadays, I don't think he would have survived long. After all, I am not sure people would pay to learn something that they would rather forget.... particularly as the little man's weighing machine was close to the hot dog and candy floss stalls. 

As a kid, I remember the sense of excitement as we descended that sloping roadway into Dreamland from the sea front. These are real magic memories from the past. I don't think too many kids are going to get the same kick from entering a new Turner Arts Centre.... and I doubt that they will remember doing so in 50 years time!!!!!

Pam
Steward 		Herne Bay
1/5/08
Hi, I'm wondering if anyone knows of an Ian White who used to live in Whitstable around 1990?

I knew him when I was 16 and it would be lovely to say hi to him again all these years later and find out if he became the artist he wanted to be.

Our Comment: Thanks, Serena. It would be nice if we can help but, of course, we cannot pass on information without the permission of the person concerned. 

So, if anyone can help, please ensure that permission is obtained beforehand. Often, it is best to ask the person to make contact with SW rather than supply information on their behalf.

Serena Blackburn
Lancs
1/5/08
Re: Clown Catcher Penny Slot Machine 

I have read your article on the 'Clown Catcher' penny slot machine with interest and ask if the machine was made by CF and H Burton of Walsall? Also, was the other version described, (where the player guided the ball through a user rotating matrix of pins to a 'return money' cup), made by them?

Our Comment: I don't know off hand, Gordon but we may be able to find an answer.

Gordon
Burrows 		Malvern Wells
Worcestershire

 

30/4/08
Re: How has Whitstable changed over the past 30 years?

I have been asked to find out how Whitstable has changed over the past 30 years and would be grateful for any ifnormation that people could give me. Its for a project I am doing at university. I am specifically interested in how industry and employement has changed in the town. 

Many thanks 

Claire

Our Comment: Best not to get me going on that one, Claire! I could end up on the wrong end of several law suits!!!! I'll let our regulars pick up on it. 

Claire
Taylor 		Whitstable
30/4/08
Re: Dreamland

I was little more than two when my parents took my sisters and I to Dreamland (1952/3 I guess). Maybe I was easily impressed but, to this day, I can remember the sounds and the coloured lights.

I do not remember the roller coaster but I did go on the helter skelter. We were sat upon doormats and I was annoyed because mine was deliberately placed so that it overlapped my mother's mat behind - safety I guess. I was not too impressed and the last time I ventured on one was with Lucy my daughter. She was not impressed either - must run in the family!

We both like roller coasters and I am sorry to learn the one at Dreamland is no more. Why do they always burn down? Didn't that happen to the one at Battersea or was that something far worse?

Mike

Our Comment: The Battersea roller coaster was indeed very similar, Mike. It was located in Battersea Park and could be seen from the railway line on the way in to Victoria. I seem to recall that there was a very serious accident on the ride and a lot of safety issues were raised. I am not sure of this led to the demise of the Battersea funfair. (We actually went on that Roller Coaster shortly before that accident and we commented then that it was a pretty rickety ride).

Dreamland actually had two roller coasters in the 1950s. The one we have been talking about was the BIG ONE. The SMALL ONE was yellow and it had a feature that made it somewhat different - ie a dark tunnel which included a fast dip in it. The big coaster also had a tunnel but it was on the flat.

To generate a whole lot of nostalgia, here are some of the well known Dreamland rides that I recall....

  • The children's TUBS. (This started with the boats being hauled up a ramp so that they could slide down into the water on the other side).
  • The FERRIS WHEEL (This was unusual because it comprised two connected wheels).
  • The HALL OF MIRRORS
  • The CRAZY HOUSE. (From the outside, this appeared to perform somersaults - rotating a full 360 degrees. Inside, customers were strapped into seats but the floor simply tilted while the rest of the house revolved around them. In those days, it wasn't permissible to really tip customers upside down).
  • The STEAM TRAIN (This provided a ride around the rear of the park)
  • The SPHINX (This was a form of ghost house and it always attracted a large audience outside. The reason was that, after stumbling around in the dark for a while, customers eventually found their way onto a balcony overlooking the crowds. After marching across the balcony, they had to bend to re-enter the house via a low door frame... whereupon the ride operator pressed a button to activate an air jet inserted in the floor. In those days, many women wore those billowing hooped skirts.

During the 1960s/1970s, the park tried to modernise with the addition of a waterchute. Eventually, (possibly in the late 1970s or 1980s), it was taken over by the Bembom Bros company and received a massive facelift. At that point, a lot of new rides arrived - including the Looping Star, Parachairs, Marie Rose and Ladybird. By then, we were hitting the permissive society and it was permissible to tip customers upside down. The Looping Star and Marie Rose achieved this quite effectively.

Bemboms also introduced a massive new ferris wheel that dominated the Margate skyline. (If that wheel had come off its axle it would have rolled over Westgate and demolished half of Birchington!). The small roller coaster was removed but the big one remained.

Bemboms also introduced a new method of charging. Customers paid a one off fee for the day after which all rides were free. Briefly, Dreamland regained some of its old popularity.... but, of course, it didn't last.

Dreamland wasn't the only amusement park to meet an untimely end on the Isle of Thanet. Ramsgate also lost its Merrie England park. Now.... that was THE place for helter skelters, Mike.... because the Ramsgate slide ended in a large, polished bowl. It always attracted a big audience.

Merrie England also had a very unusual feature... in the form of an underground railway that ran under the chalk from Dumpton Park. It emerged at the northern end of the amusement park. Whenever we went to Ramsgate, our family always alighted at Dumpton Park and used this underground facility. It cut out the long walk to the beach from Ramsgate railway station.

Merrie England was a lot smaller than Dreamland. As a result, Ramsgate tended to live in the shadow of Margate as a resort.... BUT it surpassed its neighbour in two respects. Firstly, it had arguably the biggest and best carnival in East Kent. Secondly, its seaside 'lights' were far superior. 

Each year, mum and dad took us to see the Ramsgate lights on a Sunday evening. They were brilliant and they included a fully illuminated waterfall on the hill leading down to the harbour.

As a teenager and Hillman Imp owner, I spent quite a bit of time at Merrie England in the evenings during the 1960s.... along with a friend who, for the time being, will remain nameless.... but who often sends Sea Scout photos to Simply Whitstable! That friend landed me in a bit of trouble on a number of occasions at Ramsgate. Let me outline an example....

  • There was one occasion when we accidentally found ourselves wandering through a chapter of Hells Angels at Merrie Engalnd. They were wearing nazi helmets and other paraphernalia. This prompted my friend to say "I thought the carnival was next week". I tried to escape down a man hole cover.

We got to know some of the young members of staff at Merrie England (mainly uni students on vacation) and they told us some of the park's innermost secrets. For example, if there was any trouble, the fairground lights dipped several times whereupon the biggest ride operators formed a posse to resolve things.

Another more interesting secret was the fact that the dodgem cars could be 'souped up' by turning up the power. When the senior dodgem operator disappeared for a cuppa, my friend persuaded the students to demonstrate this feature. The dodgems became almost uncontrollable - much to the consternation of the other customers!!!!! I skidded around the end of the track only to find my friend (and another mate) hurtling down the middle. They hit me admidships whereupon my power antenna swung towards the wall and disintegrated a neon light. At that point, the senior ride operator arrived back with his tea. He wasn't best pleased.

The final secret (for the moment!) concerned that "Helter Skelter with the bowl". The slide was cleaned and polished using large white blocks of wax. The students told us that it was all much faster if such blocks were placed under the mats.... whereupon they gave us some to try. We came down so fast that we almost zipped out of the bowl. We didn't try that again!

I'd better not go any further with the stories. We may run out of web space! However, I must echo Bob Court's words below.  It is so sad to see the lines of former guest houses..... particularly in the Cliftonville area. At one time, these properties were so beautifully maintained with individual roads forming their own guest house associations and setting up their own colourful street lights. Now, many are just rundown bed sits awaiting property developers to turn them into cheap 'luxury' apartments or second homes for people who can now afford more than a weekend stay at a guest house.

Margate played quite a part in Whitstable life. It is terrible to see what it has become and consider what direction it might take in the future. The old Margate didn't gain any meaningless awards for culture... but it did gain lots of smiling faces. That was because it was based on a far simpler but much maligned culture.... called FUN!!!!

Mike Bune Corfe Castle
Dorset
30/4/08
Re: Dreamland Roller Coaster

Hi Dave,

Many a ride I have had on the rollercoaster at Dreamland....now it's gone. Nearly every Saturday we used to go to Dreamland to watch Freddie and the Dreamers. We walked out on the Beatles thinking they were losers... I remember helping Kathy Kirby of the stage.... and winning the twist contest to a drum solo. And what we got up to under Margate pier won't be mentioned.

I went back to Margate a couple of years ago for the first time since 1964. What a disappointment! The seaside amusement had all gone. It just seemed a dismal place now...yet the fish and chips are still great (at least the seagulls thought so)

Lots of memories...lots of fun....best of all a lots of friends.

Cheers

Bob

Our Comment: Thanks, Bob. Margate without its candy floss image just won't be Margate. There must be a limit as to how many seaside towns can go down the 'arts and culture' route!

Bob Court Mooloolaba
29/4/08
Re: Dave Jordan's entry on the two missing Thunderjets.

I was very interested to read the story of the two missing USAF Thunderjets from Manston on November 13, 1957. At that time, I was employed on the base at Manston and worked in the Finance Office. None of the staff -- either British or American Air Force personnel apparently knew anything whatsoever of this disaster. It was at no time mentioned, and most surely would have been had anyone known. I wonder, at this late date, if the matter was kept "hush- hush" by the American authorities for whatever the reason. Another Cold War "secret?"

Our Comment: Thanks, Rosemary. It would be great if we could resolve the matter after all these years. 

Addendum: For further information and clarification, please see the Site Note dated 1/5/08 above.

Rosemary
Gilbert 		San Francisco
USA
29/4/08
Re: RNLI

Hi Dave and Natives,

Just a quick comment. My personal reward (for that is what it is called ) for turning out to the incident (see my earlier message) was £1.10 shillings. Dave Stroud received the same. 

The boat always gets a reward and Bert and Cod an undisclosed amount. It is not done for reward, and it could very easily be your own demise one day. however can give you figures of amounts the crews of the respective lifeboats received.

Rewards incurred searching for USAF F.84 Thunderjets were....

  • Nov 13th Southend lifeboat 16hrs at sea =£47-15shillings
  • Nov 13th Ramsgate lifeboat 17hrs at sea =£40-5 shillings
  • Nov 13th Margate Lifeboat 21hrs at sea = £60-14 shillings
  • Nov 15th Southend lifeboat 11hrs at sea =£35-5 shillings
  • Nov 15th Ramsgate Lifeboat 10hrs at sea = £23-5 shillings
  • Nov 15th Margate Lifeboat 10hrs at sea = £37-9 shillings
  • Total Hours 85 Total rewards to crew £244-13 shillings.

A pleasing end if you can say that to this tragedy is that, through the grapevine, USAF Manston made a rather large donation to the RNLI. This is only hearsay but I would conclude very probable. 

So, you can see why the RNLI need your donations it has always been my pet charity and the only charitable lifeboat institution in Europe. IT MUST NEVER BE NATIONALISED.

Kind regards

Dave Jordan

Our Comment: Thanks, Dave. I think we can all echo your words about the donations. If anyone is planning to visit the harbour, make sure that you pop into the RNLI shop. Apart from a range of mementoes, they also do refreshments. The proceeds provide a bit of extra cash for the organisation.

As a result of your message, Dave, I visited the Whitstable lifeboat web site and was saddened to hear of the death of Pat Kemp who was a founder member of the Whitstable station. Our readers might like to use the link below to read a tribute to Pat.....

(http://www.whitstablelifeboat.org.uk/)

Dave
Jordan 		Cliffe
Kent
28/4/08
Re: Whitstable Accents and Common Terminology

Dave,

To drudge for oysters is hard boring work hence a drudge of a job (see John Harman's message of 27/4/08).

The man at the bottom of a saw pit was the under dog and the man with the clean job was the top dog (see Jean Martin's new article on Collar's Boatyard).

It's not S.W. but I'm sure our friends away from home will be sad to hear that the roller coaster at Dreamland has burnt down.

Our Comment: Thanks, Barry. I would like to add your comments on terminology at the foot of the relevant articles if that's okay.

The fire damage to the old roller coaster is very sad. It will be interesting to see what happens now. The old Dreamland Park is wanted for redevelopment and the roller coaster was a listed structure that was in the way.

Dreamland was not only a big part of life in Thanet. It also meant a lot to generations of Natives. Family trips to Margate might have been infrequent due to the costs involved.... but they were very special days. 

Of course, a lot of people derided the place and it was the butt of so many jokes. However, I don't think that kind of snobbery was justified. Unlike some modern resorts, it had the honesty to be what it was and not to pretend that it was something else. It was pure fun.

Now it seems the place may be destined to become a home for arts and culture. Stand by for the Turner Art Centre and a myriad of second homes. God preserve us! 

Barry
Tilley 		Whitstable
28/4/08
Re: Tankerton College

Hi Dave, 

Ref. Tankerton College playing fields. My aunt thinks they may have used a field near St. Mary's church, but would they have hiked all that way for a game of cricket?

Barry

Our Comment: Thanks, Barry.... and thank you for all the material you have sent. I will be including it in the next Chat Column and then produce a permanent article on the college.

Note For Readers:  Barry and Jean Martin have provided more information on the old Tankerton College - including some of the oldest photos ever featured on SW. One shows a cricket match on the school playing field. However, as Barry has mentioned above... where WAS that field?

Barry
Hetherington 		Thame
Oxon
28/4/08
Re: The RNLI, Two Thunderjets and Four Fishermen

Hi Dave and Natives,

It’s great that Whitstable now has Lifeboat representation. Having been a sailor most of my life it’s a comforting thought to know you are only a VHF call away from help. In the past, we were reliant on the Margate Lifeboat which was our nearest. This was the case for many years. 

Sheerness did not have a Lifeboat until 1970 and, so, the story I am going to relate concerns the three lifeboat stations closest to Whitstable at the time. These were Margate, Ramsgate and Southend. The date was 13th November 1957. I was seventeen and mate on the fishing boat Pandalus owned by Bert Stroud an ex RAF man whose father owned the bakery opposite the Oxford cinema. Bert also owned Portunus which was skippered by “Cod”Kelsey. Dave Stroud ( no relationship to Bert) was mate on this boat.

At about 6.05 pm on the 13th, a message was received by the coastguard from USAF Manston that two Thunder Jet F84’s had gone missing. A further message at 6.28 pm stated that the aircraft had gone down in the sea between the Woolpack and the Pudding Pan Sands. Of course, I knew nothing of this until Bert Stroud came to my house explained the situation and asked if I would go to sea to assist in searching for the pilots. He also asked me to alert Dave Stroud as to the situation and bring him along. 

At 6.40, the Margate lifeboat, “The North Foreland”, was launched from Margate, closely followed by the Ramsgate and the Southend boats. Dave Stroud and I arrived at the harbour at about 7.00pm and it soon became apparent that the weather was somewhat inclement. It was blowing hard from the east and the tide was ebbing. Cod Kelsey was already on board his boat Pandalus and had the engine running. Bert Stroud then arrived by car and we set about starting the engine on Portunus. 

Having achieved all pre sea checks, we readied ourselves for an uncomfortable twelve or so hours at sea. I should add that we would not have gone to sea in these conditions if we were fishing. We cast off and headed out.

Rounding the pier head, the waves after clearing the pier were taken on our starboard quarter and were breaking over the boat but, once we were clear and heading into the waves, it was not so bad, I was at the helm and Bert was on the radio to Cod and the Margate lifeboat. A forty minute steam with the Street Buoy well over our stern, we could see the Margate lifeboat in the distance well lit up. Because of the wind, visibility was very good. Another half an hour or so, we were joined by the Ramsgate boat and later by the Southend lifeboat. 

We searched all night in vain for wreckage. We radioed the three lifeboats and told them of our decision to return to harbour. They thanked us for turning out in what can only be described as atrocious conditions.

Three weeks later, we all received letters from the RNLI which included a cheque for a small amount and expressing their thanks at the courage shown. The following day, we learnt that one large fuel tank was found, also a body belt. Sadly, no bodies were ever recovered. 

Between October the 30th and November the 13th, four aircraft were lost at sea around our coast and the RNLI featured in all the searches. Losses were a USAF Sabre Jet off Norfolk, an RAF Hawker Hunter off Ilfracombe and, lastly, the USAF Thunderjets from Manston.

Kind regards

Dave Jordan

Our Comment:  Thanks, Dave. I wonder if it would be okay to add the story to our Harbour of Days Gone By section. John Harman has outlined another incident that his dad, Tom, was involved in during 1938. (To view  click here). 

The willingness of fishermen to take part in rescues is heartwarming and it goes back to the dawn of time. 

The RNLI is an amazing organisation..... staffed by volunteers and financed to a large extent by public donations. There are, of course, many worthy charities but it is one of the few in which volunteers regularly put their lives at risk for the benefit of others. I have already told my family that I want no flowers at my funeral when I eventually snuff it!!!! I have asked that donations be made to the Whitstable RNLI.   

Dave
Jordan 		Cliffe
Kent
28/4/08
Re: Wild Cats of the 1950s

Hi Dave,

Just flicking through the pages before turning in for the night and was stopped in my tracks by the entry from Rosemary Gilbert on 2/4 with regard to the Shipyard Cats. Well, that really takes me back I had forgotten all about them. My Mum was one of those 'old ladies' that fed the cats on a daily basis - the only trouble is, she wasn't that old!. I must have been around 5 years old maybe, can't really remeber but I remember taking fish that she had cooked along to feed them. I used to feel really sad that they didn't have a lovely home like our two cats had. 

As Rosemary mentioned they were very sad looking little animals but one daren't go too near as they were very wild. I don't remember what happened to them once the yard was sold. Let's hope that they didn't suffer a nasty end and that their lives were ended humanley.

Also there was a mention of George Enwright. That name rings a bell, but I don't remember anything about him, can anyone remind me?

Margarett Emery

Our Comment: Thanks, Margarett. I seem to recall that the PDSA had a mobile clinic that operated nearby and I have a feeling that they may have kept an eye on those cats.

Margarett
Emery 		Whitstable
27/4/08
Re: More on accents


I may have told this tale some time ago. During a '96 visit ,Beryl & I were shopping in the supermarket where the Argosy used to be. She asked the check-out girl a question. Beryl has a clear voice but the girl said in her 'Estuary Accent' that she could not understand her. I explained Beryl's need. The girl said "Oh! I can understand you OK. You're Australian." "No." I replied "My wife is Australian. I am from here". The poor girl finished serving us in total confusion.

Re: Heights

Dave, re your comments on Height. While I was growing up in the '30s & '40s, six foot was most schoolboy's dream. I know it was mine although I was always tall. Out of 555 boys at the Langton, I was eventually one of the few, about 3 or 4, who reached that height (1952). I had just made it when measured barefoot for my Immigration medical. (Sadly for me, genetics have destroyed my achievement!). 

Like you, Dave, my sons were/are well over 6' tall but that appears merely average amongst a crowd. I walk through our local shopping Plaza and usually see several men clearly over 7' tall.

As they used to say, "There must be something in the water".

Our Comment: The height issue is going to be a big problem, Brian. At the current rate of progress, kids will soon have snow on their 'eads and back problems caused by stooping through door frames and folding themselves up in bed.

One of my relatives reckons that the government should save space by inventing vertical beds that hang on the bedroom wall. 

Brian
Smith 		Hoppers
Crossing
Victoria
Australia
27/4/08
Re: Dialect and Local Terms

Dave, regarding your response to Brian. What a coincidence, my next e-mail to you was to address just that subject. As you know, I have been writing a contribution on the Yawls and Oyster Industry. I have anguished over this somewhat, in terms and names.  The way some of these are taught and written today is just not the way I remember them being said! In particular, local fishemen called a 'dredge' a 'drudge' and this pertained to everything associated with it. Also they went drudging (not dredging).

There are two words that are implanted in my head that Dad and his peers pronounced differently. 'Coal' was pronounced 'cool'